00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:09

And so that's what that said in the first part of the equation, which is like, hey, how do we pull the creatives in and actually take advantage of the fact that we're constantly finding winning creatives into the experience of consumers having when they're actually shopping this brand? The second part of it is when I click that Shop Now button, I want to reduce the mental friction of the consumer.

00:00:22:09 - 00:00:44:02

So I want it to feel continuous from the content that they were just watching that actually caused the intent in the first place. And I want to hold that intent. So what we do is we actually advise customers to use the same creative force and similar creative in the actual store experience. So now we're holding in hand and then the final part is deliver information and make it easy to say yes.

00:00:44:02 - 00:01:01:01

So let's just say it's like a food product. Right. The information it's like I need the information to be delivered very easily. So I need the ingredients. I need, you know, I need to actually deliver information because the person is going to put it in their body. So how do you deliver that GDP information very, very quickly and upfront.

00:01:01:04 - 00:01:14:20

But then as soon as the decision is made, just like an Apple Pay button or like, yeah, it's like I could just check it out, like I don't need I don't even think about it. Exactly. Once the decision is made, get out of the way.

00:01:14:22 - 00:01:29:07

So there's so many different tools that have accomplished small pieces of what we're talking about, right? Whether it's like one cart checkout. I'm of the opinion, like when you look at the customer journey, like what we're seeing today, just because the consumer has such a short attention span is most of the education is done in the Act funnel.

00:01:29:07 - 00:01:56:12

Let's use Julie as an example. Like I've followed Julie now for months and I'm consistently hit with their ads on Facebook. You know, my buying decision is a confluence of different factors. It's their Facebook ad library. It's the truck that I'm seeing. And Soho people talking about it. That's that's how he's designed the funnel. Right. But I would say most of the education like the fact you, for instance, like answering objections, like why is filtered shower good for my skin that's happening in the ad funnel.

00:01:56:13 - 00:02:14:22

And so like your creative program needs to answer objections and educate the customer on why the product is worth buying relative to the peer set and competitive set. And then when I click the ad, when I actually go to the website, I'm just looking to purchase, maybe I'm actually looking to to get a little bit more educated, answer some more objections.

00:02:14:22 - 00:02:32:15

But I think a lot of learning experiences that there's just there's too much information, like there is too much information. I want it almost to be simpler. You know what the really interesting thing is? When you put a lot of information in front of your consumer, you're giving them reasons to say no, not just want it to be say yes.

00:02:32:17 - 00:02:48:06

Like the person came in with a yes. That's why they clicked shop now. But now you're giving them reasons to say no. Like and that's, I think, the counterintuitive thing that a lot of people like, fool themselves into is like, no, no, no, I need to like, share all of this. I mean, even I do this for my own company.

00:02:48:06 - 00:03:06:03

It's like, no, no, no, I need to explain everything to the customer. Like I need to make sure they fully understand. It's like, no, man. They don't need to fully understand it. And that's that's a fine starting place. Like when you're selling complex things and you're a founder and you put so much into your product and you're like, well, there are so many features and reasons that you should buy this product, that's great.

00:03:06:03 - 00:03:26:07

Then you need to do the exercise of distilling that in to a couple of key value propositions. And I mean this in the, in the in the simplest form, I think Steve Jobs is like the ultimate product marketer for sure. He very complex products, just like, how can we make it so simple to understand? People need to bring that that thinking into the website experience.

00:03:26:07 - 00:03:45:19

I think one of the issues is that a lot of that work gets delegated and it loses some of its it's its efficacy, it's fidelity. Yeah. But I think like startups, for sure, SMB is like, you need to be putting yourself in that in that shoe. And that's why I think brand and marketing lead founders, they're the ones who are seeing the craziest results.

00:03:45:20 - 00:04:07:11

Eric from brand Joly, like, you know, list goes on and on. Yeah. And I think it's because they they can communicate the message simply and effectively such that their channels are getting the most possible leverage. Right. Like we we we heard Arjun speak yesterday and I mean, the message is so simple. It's like, you know, your shower water's dirtier than this truck.

00:04:07:11 - 00:04:31:01

It's just like the reason I love that. Is it doesn't get into like, hey, actually, like, the iron in the water has this impact on your skin and therefore you need to, you know, it's just like all of that is like you just like, take all of that away. Take all of that away and like, don't give people a reason to say no and just give them the simple message that even though it may not be accurate or precise, it's actually effective.

00:04:31:01 - 00:04:48:08

So. So I totally agree with you. Yeah, the water is dirty. Like by our product, I mean I love I love also leaning into friction in marketing where it's like you can like it's true pain. That's where I think you have just great outcomes. So let's go back to like what? What is, a world where tracking doesn't exist?

00:04:48:08 - 00:05:08:05

Because I think a lot of marketers, they don't understand what's going to happen over the next decade, like we're still kind of stuck in our old ways. I talked to a lot of a lot of marketers who are they've been trained by deterministic attribution. They've been trained by like Roas. Yeah, last click mentality. And it's destructive. And you're starting to see shifts in that in that behavior.

00:05:08:09 - 00:05:23:24

But where let's play this out over like a long enough time horizon. Where is the privacy game going? What does it mean. Yeah. The sad I wish it was a, you know, a long time horizon. I actually personally I'm not sure it's actually that long of a time horizon. I think it's going to be here in 18 months.

00:05:23:24 - 00:05:47:04

And I think that those 18 months are going to elapse with like, it's going to feel way faster than we think we're on the quarter system. You know. Yeah, I God I mean, don't get me wrong, like Google, Google is good at one thing which is delaying launches. Yeah. If there's one thing Google is good at, it delays, delays, delays, like even this ga4 thing, they're like, oh no, no, no, we're going to Sunset Universal Analytics.

00:05:47:04 - 00:06:06:06

And it's like, it's been a long time. They've been delaying them forever. But they you know, they claim right now that they're going to get rid of the third party cookie at the end of 2024. And they're going to start with a 1% deprecation at the beginning of next year. So I actually think like we kind of have 18 months till we get to a world without tracking, basically.

00:06:06:06 - 00:06:31:15

And I think that the way that that world plays out is the people who have been investing in incrementality measurement and, and, and modeling or media mix modeling specifically are not going to feel that much of the impact. And then on the other side of the dumbbell, people who are investing in like on platform shops or like distributed commerce, like like somebody like Fermat or other vendors that look similar to us, they're not going to feel that much of the impact.

00:06:31:15 - 00:07:00:14

But if you're only doing like attribution and sort of click on Facebook Land on my website, I think it's going to feel feel pretty painful. So I think like the way the future world looks is actually your best. Channels are you own and operate distributed commerce channels. So with somebody like us than you do on platform shops. So like Facebook shops, Twitter shops, tick tock, tick tock, shops, whatever that may be a spend on retail media networks like Amazon, all close to the ecosystems.

00:07:00:18 - 00:07:24:21

And then you run the rest of your campaigns and you measure them through, not through attribution, but through through eminently many solutions. Yeah. And so I think that as like a future marketer, you basically have to be excellent at two things. You have to be excellent at statistics and finance in order to understand how to measure what you're what you're doing in a world where you don't have, like, simple data.

00:07:24:21 - 00:07:49:07

And you also need to be excellent at, like you were saying, taking, taking intelligent, bad things that feel uncomfortable because you're you're attuned to what the customer wants. Yeah, exactly. It's like just going with your gut, like some of that's coming back in the marketing space. But you also need, like you're saying, to have an understanding of statistics and measurement, which is it's that is that in and of itself is uncomfortable.

00:07:49:07 - 00:08:20:16

Like example with meme is there's been a learning curve in the SMB space because traditionally it's been reserved for for high spending clients. I'm talking like, you know, $20 million plus in advertising spend where like Incrementality is very material. And I think men like the way we've been trying to just customize and work on it is like the time it takes to actually deliver insight is is something that feels unnatural for marketers who are used to just looking at a dashboard and seeing raw updates and updates like literally hour over hour.

00:08:20:16 - 00:08:40:06

Yeah, yeah. So that, you know, that's something that people are going to need to work with. I mean, the fastest meme response time, I don't know if, you know, recasts. Isn't it like months? It's a, it's a, it's a recast. I the last person we had on the pod was Michael Kaminsky from recast. Okay. Ever cool a measurement solution one week, one week intervals, which is.

00:08:40:06 - 00:09:01:22

That's insane. It's good. But, still for Matt, but for still for for a marketer, they're like one one week, like. But yeah, I think it's tough because actually, the marketer needs to have the alignment of their like CEO and CFO that that's okay. You know what I mean? So I think and I think that's fine. I think that's okay.

00:09:01:22 - 00:09:27:06

I think CEO and CFO are willing to place trust in the marketing function. I think there's a lot of pressure, though, on CMO. So a lot of the trepidation and insecurity and like, just for lack of a better word, is coming from the fact that there is so much pressure and they're forced to to do things that they used to, you know, not have to do, like have a lot more financially centered conversations, talk about EBITDA, you know, the list goes on and on.

00:09:27:09 - 00:09:52:15

And so that that that forces pressure on on a CMO who's traditionally maybe a brand marketer who likes to talk, you know, about the look and feel of the brand, that that gut reaction or branded top of funnel experiences. And, you know, it's just forcing them to be to be a little bit more well-rounded. Yeah, yeah. I had a conversation actually, literally right before the event started yesterday with, with the CMO of like, a pretty well-known beauty brand.

00:09:52:15 - 00:10:13:10

And I kid you not, what he said to me was up. I am the finance function. Like I'm the one putting together the finance model for the company. And I was like, okay, yeah, I hear you mad because, yeah, we were having we were having a conversation about something related to his contribution margin. And yeah, he was like very emphatic about, you know, like fundamentally his responsibility.

00:10:13:10 - 00:10:33:15

Yes, it's marketing, but actually it's two it's two contribution margin. At this point you need to understand contribution margin even for creative testing to just know like what SKUs you should be pushing. So like I'll give you an insight into what our marketing function like, what our edge is like when we work with clients. It's it is performance creative attribution and analytics and really like measurement and experimentation.

00:10:33:15 - 00:10:52:02

But it's also PNL analysis, financial projections. And then making that into what our media mix is going to be over 6 to 12 months. And so that's a lot of value there for the marketing team because it gives them some it gives them some confidence. Like I think every marketing team needs to be doing that. So we train our marketers.

00:10:52:04 - 00:11:18:06

My strategy function is like these are people who are acquisition trained marketers like you. You met Levi last night and you've actually met a lot of the strategy team. They have paid acquisition backgrounds, so like running creative campaigns in the Facebook account. But they're also rounded on the financial analysis and data science side, where they're being enriched by a data science team who's running revenue forecasts and and measurement exercises.

00:11:18:06 - 00:11:33:21

And so they're kind of being trained to be this next gen CMO. Like that's kind of my mission. So are you how are you? How do you think about, first of all, do you buy into the idea that we're going to have a world without tracking? And how are you guys if you buy into it? Like, what are you guys doing?

00:11:33:21 - 00:12:05:07

It sounds like you're preparing your team with, like, more sophisticated, tools to to do this analysis. Are you guys are you guys building things in-house? Like, how are you thinking about it? Yeah. So I mean, there there needed to be. Yes. I think the way that I look at it is like, I just want to equip our team with the tools that they need to be successful in this next generation of, of of marketing, right, where things are a little bit more obscure or there's a lot of education that goes into that on the client side, because people are used to just going to agency to agency and saying like, how can I get

00:12:05:07 - 00:12:22:07

better Roas? It's like, well, what is Roas? Even, even mean anymore? Like, how are you measuring? What is that in platform? Last click attribution. And that is the case for a lot of a lot of businesses. It's like that doesn't make sense. So let's let's actually agree on how we're going to measure. And that's what we'll set goals around.

00:12:22:11 - 00:12:45:12

Right. And that's how we look at it. But yeah. So we are building tools in-house. I spoke about one last night that's really just more on like the marketing operational side. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, customizing models specifically for, like, more SMEs because I think it's, it's essential for, for businesses moving forward and then getting more comfortable, just like diving into the financial conversations.

00:12:45:16 - 00:13:14:10

And I think on the marketing side, a lot of, the workflow is going to be using tools to develop better creative strategies that we intuitively know makes sense for the consumer margins. Conversation last night about talking about water. And just like, like being really clear about the value proposition of the product is is and not having a lot of tracking because it was conversation and community based is, I think, a great it's great anecdotal evidence of like what I think the future of growth looks like.

00:13:14:13 - 00:13:40:00

But so you need marketers who are comfortable experimenting and saying, this feels right, and I'm going to be able to validate that over a period of time with. With projections that I feel right. And then with, you know, more broad stroke metrics like CPO and marketing efficiency ratio. And I was going to say the one, the one thing that I would add to that is on the one hand, he's doing all these things that are hard to measure.

00:13:40:00 - 00:13:55:14

But on the other hand, when you heard him talk about each of the things that he did, he knew exactly how much you remember at the very end, he was like, here's how much this thing cost. Here's how I think about the efficacy of that cost. So like, there's ROI, there's ROI, and they're they're being very deliberate about.

00:13:55:14 - 00:14:14:07

Exactly. So I don't want to like I don't want to share that like, hey, I think it's like okay to just like spend money, spend money knowing where you're like, yeah, exactly. And not know what you're getting. You need the exact dollar incentive. Every single one of those experiments, you had a very clear heuristic for. What is the way that I am actually getting something out of it.

00:14:14:07 - 00:14:29:20

He had. I bet you he knows the exact like to the millisecond you know of like how much each of those pieces of content, that he got from UGC cost him. He probably knows exactly the number of, like, items that he has gifted, the number of pieces of content he's gotten out of it. You know what I mean?

00:14:29:20 - 00:14:47:09

It's like, on the one hand, I think I think it's like actually very high sophistication to be at that level. For sure. You have to have high confidence. Exactly. Like you have to have high confidence. You have guardrails. You're like, this is my budget quarterly. And what's going to make sense to get people to buy this product? And that's how people used to think too, you know?

00:14:47:14 - 00:15:10:11

Yeah, yeah. Pre tracking. Yeah. Before they got spoiled cookies. Exactly. And this goes into Johnny's conversation too because it just became there was like not enough friction. You know it was just easy to pour money into the channel and just be like, all right we're going to grow. And that's bull market vibes. You know, actually, Eric, I was talking to Eric about this, Eric Siefert, he has, he has a podcast called mobile and, and a blog called Mobile Debt Memo.

00:15:10:13 - 00:15:37:05

That's how I that's how we met. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I was talking to Eric about this, and he was just like, man, Facebook spoiled the marketing function. Yeah. It's just like, basically you used to have people who were like very financially aware, very statistically aware up until like 2014. And then Facebook tools got so good that like, literally all you needed was people to, like, load creatives and a dollar value into an interface and then just hang out.

00:15:37:05 - 00:15:57:06

You're running? Yeah. I mean, couple that with the fact that you could be really early on that like a lot of percentage of media like just in aggregate in the in the US economy, at least with, with customers who were unsure about digital like that was a thing for a while. Totally. And so you had, you know, DTC darlings who were just like, screw it, going to take advantage.

00:15:57:06 - 00:16:19:02

You're going to get in early. And you also couple, you know, you have just full deterministic tracking. Just, you know, that was a time. Yeah. It's it's rough because some of those DTC businesses like what we learned over time was like actually just sold one product and then there was nothing to do after that. And so as soon as acquisition costs went up, those businesses there were no longer viable.

00:16:19:02 - 00:16:39:12

Yeah. I mean, just look at public valuations of direct to consumer companies. They're getting are getting crushed. But the ones that actually had like very excellent leaves, those ones actually still had very high durability. Like I mean, whether we like to admit it or not, Uber grew because they just spent an incredible money on Facebook ads. So and and promotions.

00:16:39:12 - 00:16:57:15

Right. So it's like they spent incredible dollars on acquisition. But the LTV was there. So it was actually kind of okay in the long run. So where do you think the ecosystem is moving? Obviously we've talked about tracking measurement like what marketers should be doing. But let's look at it from a macro perspective. So we were at Torch Capital last night.

00:16:57:15 - 00:17:16:11

Yeah that's a traditional consumer fund. And there's just less there's going to be less venture capital in the space. So I mean you're going to have less SMB is just growing. When you look at E-Com and you look at that. Yeah, yeah. Because direct consumer is just less attractive of an investment thesis because you're it's just been it's been proven.

00:17:16:12 - 00:17:35:11

Yeah. Yeah. And that might be for for better or for worse. Right. But that has a lot to do with what we just said with like 80 changes are, are a negative for small businesses. These are all tied together. So I, I'm curious to to get your perspective on, on where do you see the state of let's just relegated to direct to consumer.

00:17:35:11 - 00:17:56:06

Yeah. Yeah. So I mean I think a few things. So the very first thing that I started to notice amongst many DC brands is like DDC founders are pretty gritty. And what they've started to do is figure out how do I create some sort of recurring revenue stream out of this business. And so they're no longer like the one and done sell a mattress and don't sell anything else.

00:17:56:07 - 00:18:16:17

They're thinking about what is like an ongoing source of value that I can provide to the consumer. That becomes an ongoing source of revenue. Right. So some simple examples of this are Julie has that with their filtration system. Right. So it's like you know it is actually recurring revenue for them. There's there's a number of other companies laundry source, their recent client of ours.

00:18:16:17 - 00:18:35:18

They do it's laundry pods, but they smell incredible. That's unusual for laundry. Laundry for me. Always, like, smells the same. It smells like, you know, it smells like a laundromat. Yeah. They have some interesting scents, and it's just got a it's a great recurring revenue business, and they're scaling like crazy. They've just unlocked scale on Facebook.

00:18:35:18 - 00:18:55:02

And it's one of those other, you know, interesting stories. But again, recurring revenue just baked into the product. They chose an interesting product category. Not a lot of competition. I so I think that like a lot of DTC products, what we'll start to see is how do we attach recurring value to to this product. So I think that's going to be a major shift, one born out a need.

00:18:55:02 - 00:19:18:09

But I think it'll be super interesting. I think the other major shift that will happen is you'll start to see way more community based marketing, because yes, that is like a big detriment in terms of tracking. But I think we would be fooling ourselves if we didn't admit that actually, like reach has grown very, very quickly, like any one individual's reach potential is actually gotten only larger and larger over time.

00:19:18:09 - 00:19:38:21

And so the more community based marketing efforts that you can actually start to stand up that are quote unquote non-obvious to the more interesting. So, like, we heard some ideas yesterday where somebody bought like a Facebook community for example. I love that I'm seeing way more slack communities get stood up for like various types of things. Right? More more in the B2B space from a marketing perspective.

00:19:38:21 - 00:20:05:01

But I think like the sort of community based marketing approaches are going to end up becoming way more powerful than we expect. And then channel integration just on the Vermont side, like integrating with with other channels and creating shoppable experiences for those channels. That's I'm assuming that's on the roadmap. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think for us, the nice thing about like the way that we have built our technology suite is it's actually e-commerce is where we're starting and then it'll actually expand past that.

00:20:05:04 - 00:20:28:14

Yeah. I mean it should like you can work with a variety of different industries. It's like the pain right now. It's just it's severe on E-Comm. Exactly. Exactly right. Exactly right. And so like for us, we're going to end up becoming like vertical agnostic and also like platform agnostic and just be able to deliver content native wherever you're experiencing that content, content native shopping experiences for that individual and for that brand.

00:20:28:14 - 00:20:54:13

Right. And so for us, I think I feel good about being able to be very effective on the brand's behalf in this, like highly distributed, non-deterministic world. But I think that generally speaking, we're going to end up with, yeah, greater distribution and lower determinism on the marketer side. So I ask you, this kind of what when you came in today, like, how is the platform working so well.

00:20:54:15 - 00:21:14:01

Yeah. Right. Because I mean, yeah, the case studies are incredible. Okay, I'll I'll tell you something. So I've gotten asked this multiple times. I've gotten asked like, are the numbers real? And I always say the numbers are they're actually fake. Like we're lying, but we're like marketing is is it's fake. It wouldn't be the first time we're relying on the negative.

00:21:14:01 - 00:21:34:05

So like we're actually understating the real numbers because the actual numbers are too they're too hard to believe. They're too hard to believe. And so people think that we're just like scammy marketers who don't know how to market if we tell the truth and have we have done a lot of technology work to really remove friction once intent is created.

00:21:34:05 - 00:21:54:18

So like, you know, our average load time for any of our experiences is like 500 milliseconds. And if you compare that to most brands websites, it's, you know, probably at 3 to 5 bucks an improvement. We can pull the checkout to any location inside of that experience. So we can pull it all the way up to like within the video content.

00:21:54:18 - 00:22:13:12

We can pull it into the PDP, into the it doesn't matter. We can because we have built it in a modular way. And I think that this is the thing that's like hard to appreciate when you when you know what every element is in your store and you can just pull it to wherever is the most simple location for the consumer to purchase.

00:22:13:12 - 00:22:33:21

You can, like, dramatically change the likelihood. And that just like should be happening, right? For me, I'm like, sometimes there's a you know, a quick rate of change in e-commerce, like a lot of technology being built, but it's 2023, you know, and I was talking to I don't know if you know, Sam Blumenthal, he has a startup called banter that we actually invested in, focused on community.

00:22:33:24 - 00:22:59:07

We were talking about how the the website experience has remained the same for the past 20 years, and there's no reason for that. Not only is there no reason for that. Have you listened to the, Marc Andreessen podcast with. No, Lex okay, so you should 100% listen to it. The number one thing that people need to realize is the website is an artifact of, search being the primary way that we interact with the web.

00:22:59:10 - 00:23:15:18

So you not only did we start off with websites and therefore search got built in order to index the web, and then that's how we navigate the web. But the fact that search existed further, you know, it's like a virtuous cycle. It made it more likely that you needed a website. And so then we have SEO and all these other things.

00:23:15:18 - 00:23:44:13

Right? But now that you have AI and you have an AI interface, the importance of the website is actually very, very low. Because if you actually are interacting with an AI agent, you're never potentially you're never actually navigating to a website in order to make a purchase decision. And so you need to start thinking modular anyway. So like forget all the tracking stuff between the changes and tracking and the changes in the AI, the likelihood that you will be able to say, hey, I'm going to serve an ad and then move the person to a website.

00:23:44:13 - 00:24:02:21

And that's how like that linear thinking is just being deprecated. The like the exactly the likelihood that that's our future is just like so it's like so small. Let's let's play that out though okay. So generative AI tools are just becoming a more normal part of the way that like we query and discover things. How does that change the the buying experience.

00:24:02:21 - 00:24:24:04

Like from a brand perspective, like how should you be preparing for that. So I'll give you like the simplest example. So let's just say right now I'm going to try to buy a mic right for for a podcast. What's going to end up happening is I'm just going to enter into some sort of agent interface like, hey, here's roughly what I am trying to accomplish.

00:24:24:04 - 00:24:41:01

I just want to buy a mic that'll make sure that, yeah, like, get me a good money. Yeah, give me a good mic. Here are my constraints. And it'll say like, hey, here are three options. And then I'll be like, okay. Like, here's how I make my buying decisions. Or it will have already learned how I've made, make my buying decisions and serve me all of the relevant information.

00:24:41:01 - 00:24:57:10

And so that's like search based buying, right? So that's like sort of what the future version of Amazon will look like. Utility based buying, search based buying. The second category is more like discovery based. Right. So that's like what Facebook is. That's what a lot of DTC brands are, which is like, hey, you want to like create intent?

00:24:57:12 - 00:25:21:08

Yeah. You're generating demand to generate demand. Exactly. Or like, you know what sometimes people will call like inspiration based purchases as opposed to utility based purchases. That I think is all going to be in the context of media. But I think that whatever is the format within which you're like interacting with media, you're going to expect that you can be you can ask questions and be served the relevant components from that brand's back end.

00:25:21:08 - 00:25:43:02

So for example, within like the Facebook UI, you're going to be expecting that, like, hey, what is that shirt that that woman is wearing? And it will serve back to you an answer based on an integration that the brand has done with Facebook and other tools, right, that allow you to actually understand what is going on and then allow you to actually make a purchase should you choose to.

00:25:43:02 - 00:26:02:21

You'll probably even be able to ask questions like, what are my alternatives, right? Or hey, I actually want to see what are the other types of shirts that this brand makes, and it'll serve all of those things to you in component is either owned by the platform on which the media is being served, or owned by a platform that the brand actually manages, but it is not necessarily a website.

00:26:02:21 - 00:26:19:20

And that's like the thing that I think people I think like right now, it's hard for probably most people to imagine, like what that kind of interface looks like. But the, the, the simplest way of thinking about it is like, hey, it's not it's no longer hard for us to imagine how the search interface changes because we all have interacted with like at the ChatGPT interface.

00:26:19:23 - 00:26:37:22

And it's like a similar shift is going to happen to to your website. And so like your website anyways is highly likely to it's going to become a less less of a part of the conversation. Exactly, exactly. It's super interesting. I think the next decade there's going to be a tremendous amount of shifts. These things are happening so quickly too.

00:26:37:24 - 00:27:02:17

You know, it took what, two years for us to go from GPT three, which was like, okay, right to to GPT four, which is mind boggling. Yeah. It's insane. And then I think just the changing interfaces are going to be really interesting. I think that's a good place for us to kind of wind down awesome. And yeah, give people hopefully an interesting set of things to think about and to prepare for.

00:27:02:18 - 00:27:22:17

Yeah, definitely. I think there's there's a lot there. I appreciate you coming out to, my apartment here. Yeah. We're having man, hopefully we're going to get you out in New York. Where are you guys? You said you're moving just into the suburbs, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, well, thanks so much. I think I think this was super, insightful.

00:27:22:17 - 00:27:41:09

We're going to have to get you back on the pod in, like, 18 months to discuss all of these changes and how they pan out. But, yeah, I appreciate you coming out last night. And then, of course, this morning. All right. Thanks a lot. It's like zero.