00:00:00:00 - 00:00:32:02

So now dealing with the thing that is made from hundreds of parts from every corner of the world, dealing with 30 plus vendors, coordinating this symphony of parts that need to arrive, being put together into a bike. So we're tiny teeth. We're not Harley Davidson, so we're still learning from this. And it is incredibly challenging. But at the end of the day, when I see the experience people have when they ride the bike and this sort of like childlike, reaction, like what?

00:00:32:04 - 00:00:46:18

What is this thing, right? I know we've created something unique, and we saw that that that thing, that product, you know, excellence, however you want to call it. Like we have.

00:00:46:20 - 00:01:11:24

Tara is the infamous founder CEO of TR form, a company that has has 20 production. What do you. They're not e-bikes. They are elect electric motorcycles. Right. Yeah. I want to get the terminology right. Yeah. They haven't come up with a new term yet. But electric motors maybe now that's an opportunity. So electric motor bikes on the road.

00:01:11:24 - 00:01:33:22

Honestly, a sick brand. Even sicker product. If you haven't heard of TR form, go look it up and be amazed. I think we want to just dive right into some of the dynamics stories of like where you're at in your life cycle and we don't need to go through, you know, the entire origin story of the company because I think that's been pretty well documented.

00:01:33:24 - 00:01:50:10

But there is one thing that I actually just want to kick, kick off this conversation with Tara. As you came to our Knight School event in New York that we had and you spoke and, a lot of people enjoyed that conversation, which is online. So anybody listening to this can go to YouTube and look that up. It's great.

00:01:50:12 - 00:02:12:10

Great talk about branding. But you mentioned that your bikes are completely plant based and you've like threw that out there. And I was talking to some folks after the, the keynote and they were like, oh yeah, you know, he throughout this term plant based like what does that even mean? And is like no like that's legit. Like they are through and through, you know, plant based.

00:02:12:10 - 00:02:29:01

And the way that they that Terraform makes these vehicles is his exceptional. So actually just can you like talk about that for like a second. Because I don't think I think that goes over people's heads. And I think that that kind of context would be interesting to kick things off with. And then we can talk about business.

00:02:29:03 - 00:02:51:04

Yeah, absolutely. So, definitely not entirely and through and through plant based, because then it would just be a piece of algae floating in the ocean. But, what we try to do is to look at what are the some of the toxic materials that are being used in the automotive industry. And, a lot of it is still, petroleum based plastics, vinyls.

00:02:51:06 - 00:03:17:08

So materials that take a very long time for nature to basically restored to its original format. And, when we started designing the bike, so kind of a high level, we started, napkin sketch about six years ago. Spent, two years building a first prototype that barely works enough to kind of demonstrate, like, this is our take on what the the future of electric motorcycles should look like.

00:03:17:10 - 00:03:43:20

And during that process, also discovered a lot of, materials that, that feel obsolete. And if we're going to be building a product is going to be electric, which is obviously way less, emissions. We felt there's a big opportunity to also look at the actual materials that are being used in the manufacturing process. So one big part where I identified it as well, let's start replacing the bodywork that is traditionally injection molded plastic.

00:03:43:23 - 00:04:06:03

The seats, and said, okay, what other materials can we use. And there was not a lot of alternatives on the market. So we said, well, let's try to develop our own, some sort of a plant based alternative or composite. So while doing all the structural design and engineering, electrical engineering of the bike, we also focus a lot on the materials science and that it took us a while.

00:04:06:03 - 00:04:30:07

So eventually we developed a, composite and composite. There's basically a process the way carbon fiber, panels or bodywork is used on, cars and motorcycles. So instead of carbon fiber, which usually comes as a, as a cloth, we've we use a flax seed fiber weave, which is derived from the flax, linseed, plant.

00:04:30:09 - 00:04:51:12

And then we use a bio based resin, which is essentially kind of like glue that holds it together. And then for, color, we use algae carbon. So essentially we take, the, the algae, it's being converted into powder like substance. We infuse that powder into the bio resin, and then everything sort of comes together as a part.

00:04:51:12 - 00:05:17:24

We lift lifted off the tool and it becomes a plant based, biodegradable part. So the exterior of the bike is made that way, but everything internally and still uses aluminum. It uses sheet metal, wiring harnesses. So it's it's far from entirely plant based. And I don't think it will ever get to be 100%, plant based, but at least sort of the initiative is how do we begin reducing our carbon footprint?

00:05:18:01 - 00:05:43:11

Throughout the whole production cycle? No, it's massively impressive nonetheless. This goes into one of the the things I really wanted to chat about as far as your origin story, just to dive into like that. Pre-Seed. True. 0 to 1 phase, like you have this concept, there's a lot of gray area. Obviously you had a commitment to product from day one, and there's a lot of R&D that you had to undergo.

00:05:43:17 - 00:06:07:06

How did you approach, raising the funds necessary, you know, to actually just commit the time that you needed to commit? I mean, we work with a lot of consumer packaged goods brands, fashion brands, whatever, who are going from 0 to 1, and that takes them a few years and delayed timelines and what have you just to get through, you know, just to get a, you know, beverage to market.

00:06:07:08 - 00:06:31:06

Nonetheless, a motor, a motor bike, you know what I'm saying? So, like, how much did you have to raise? How did you go about doing that? How did you convince investors? What did that look like? So I spent most of my, career in, technology, product development, industrial design, furniture. And then on weekends, I was building and vintage motorcycles.

00:06:31:08 - 00:07:06:01

So basically just finding a, 50, 60 year old piece of two wheels, taking it apart, you know, rebuilding it. So I had pretty good understanding of how do you how do you build a motorcycle? But I had no idea how to build an electric motorcycle because I'm not classically trained electrical engineer. So the idea initially was not just to build an electric prototype, but really to say, okay, the motorcycle is obviously the product, but how do we build a completely new brand and more importantly, a culture around, writing?

00:07:06:03 - 00:07:27:21

Because there's a lot of stigma around the motorcycles and sort of the entire the entire notion of being a motorcycle rider. People still have this image of what it means to be a motorcycle, a person. So for us, it was sort of an opportunity like, okay, we can build a completely new product, but also create a new brand with a different ethos of what it means to ride a motorcycle.

00:07:27:23 - 00:08:03:18

So the, the, the big vision was already there, and I believe part of it is my ignorance, around the complexity of building vehicles, that it was basically like, well, how difficult can it be? Right? So building a machine from scratch made out of hundreds parts. So I said, this is probably going to take quite a lot of effort and time, but I'm going to focus on the big picture and just start, without doing too much initial research, what it requires to, to build, like, what are the components that go into electric motorcycle.

00:08:03:21 - 00:08:30:24

So I spend a little bit of time kind of wrapping my head around the general architecture and then just started. So I had access to garage, I had access to a local community of people from mechanical engineering. Electrical engineering started pulling them together and said, hey, this is kind of what we want to do. And, then I created a pitch to act as you would do with most startups, you know, like get the idea out, feel if people are interested in that.

00:08:30:24 - 00:08:48:14

And it took me a couple of months to just do the design of the bike and in CAD, and I felt good about that. Starting showing some of, my previous investors from my last company and they're like, this is nuts. When he when are you going to start a motorcycle company? That doesn't make any sense with what funding?

00:08:48:14 - 00:09:12:14

Like you're going to need $100 million funding to create an automotive company. But I felt like like, what do I have to lose? I got, I got to do that. So I put in the capital. I had, my savings and basically just spent day and night at this garage trying to map out what are the things that needed to build the very first prototype, like my my first goal was let's show that something exists, something that's real.

00:09:12:18 - 00:09:34:15

And as we started doing it, everyone went around sort of like, oh, wow, these guys are actually building this thing. And and in a garage in Brooklyn, you know? So some momentum began to form. And, then I remember our first investor wrote a check of $50,000 and I'm like, wow, that's all the money we're ever going to need to to finish the prototype.

00:09:34:17 - 00:09:57:04

Which didn't get us very far. But I think one of the key aspects was this pure belief and determination, which I had in the beginning, I never hesitated. I'm like, okay, we're definitely going to be able to build this thing. And, by by having that conviction, it becomes easier for you to go and tell the story and say, this is what we intend to do.

00:09:57:06 - 00:10:17:00

But yet our very early investors, for them, it was still such a moonshot. They're like, cool, man. Here's a check off 20 K. You know, let's, maybe it will turn into something, but it was definitely not. Not a safe bet. So, our very first investors were usually angel investors who said this is a cool project.

00:10:17:01 - 00:10:35:24

Like, I want to be part of it. You know, at that point, they didn't really think, oh, cool, here's the next Tesla of motorcycles, because we have absolutely nothing to show for them. But then, yeah, we we began a very long, very long journey to to go from that napkin sketch to having bikes on the road to ours.

00:10:35:24 - 00:11:00:10

It's interesting because like, it seems from what you just described in like fast forwarding to now, there's like two big challenges for this business to like, really get it to a place where it can thrive. One was a branding challenge and like connecting with a market that wouldn't necessarily resonate with the vision that you had. And then the other is just the fundraising challenge, which I think you're in the middle of right now.

00:11:00:12 - 00:11:30:06

How did those challenges kind of evolve as the business grew? I'd love to hear you talk on that. The branding challenge was, for me, kind of the easiest because that's that's the word like, I come from and, it was more of like, oh, here is, here's a market that is so outdated, the motorcycle market, right, that if you come in with a with a new story and a new sense of esthetics, there is no one to compete with and the existing motorcycle brands out there, none of them did.

00:11:30:06 - 00:12:10:15

I find. Oh, here's sort of you know, the next generation of motorcycles. So it gave me kind of a blank slate approach of like, this is what it should look and feel like in terms of, esthetics, in terms of language, brand, identity, visuals, all of that. And that was, almost the very first thing I did. And then I began designing the actual bike, because I knew that the form factor off of the bike needed to be something that really stands out, that it doesn't look like an other electric motorcycle or a regular motorcycle for that, for that, say, but yet being relatable, something that has an essence of sort of vintage, but

00:12:10:15 - 00:12:36:14

yet modernity to it. So of the purchasers who've preordered a bike, how many of them are buying a bike for the first time? I want to say maybe like 30%. Yeah. Which is pretty. It's pretty good. No. That was like the impetus. That was the thesis. Like, hey, we'll get people who've never aligned with that. A Harley David Davidson rider, like, come and buy a bike for the first time.

00:12:36:16 - 00:13:09:09

And then, you know, so attracts people who like bikes onto, you know, something that's that's more beneficial for the environment, more, you know, forward looking I would say. So it seems like you accomplished that, but that, sort of grew, unintentionally because initially, you know, I'm like, well, who's going to buy a motorcycle? It's probably people who already have a motorcycle, or they have a couple of bikes, but they're looking for an electric motorcycle that they haven't seen on the market that fits, you know, their style.

00:13:09:09 - 00:13:26:05

But then once we launched the brand on the bike, during events, there were so many people coming up and saying, you know what, I, I never care about motorcycles. But when I saw this thing, like, I want to get into the space, how do I begin riding? Where do I get my license? And then that kind of gave us an insight.

00:13:26:05 - 00:13:50:12

Oh, wow. There's a whole group of people out there that traditional motorcycle companies aren't speaking to, because they're still talking to it like you're classic, you know, rider, and then we began focusing more on, well, let's let's allow this experience for anyone, you know, whether you're interested in, bikes or not, whether you're interested in cars or gearhead or not.

00:13:50:14 - 00:14:13:13

Like, here's a cleaner way to experience with riding. Feels like, without, you know, all the baggage. And and that's super powerful because you I mean, the tripwire for getting people interested in the bike is like the design of it. It's like, how do you. Yeah, that's that's the art. Right? But it's literally selling the bike to a point where you're kind of opening up a new category.

00:14:13:13 - 00:14:37:15

You're able to, like, expand the market share of like, you know what a motorcycle rider looks like. Do you think about it in that way? I do now, I did not a couple of years ago. But sort of looking back and kind of retracing the dots. That's basically what Tesla did, right? So if you look at electric vehicles before the Tesla Roadster, none of them were a desirable product.

00:14:37:15 - 00:15:06:22

Like you had the Prius, you had the, volt, you had GM's, one, whatever was called, like, these are not testaments to, to, you know, iconic design. But then Tesla Roadster came out of people like, wow, that's a cool looking car. And it's electric. And it's fast. So that's where I believe the design is such a fundamental driving force to adopt new behaviors.

00:15:06:24 - 00:15:32:17

And not by saying, oh, here's a more sustainable alternative, but here is an alternative that's better in so many ways, and it happens to be sustainable. But that narrative kind of evolved, later in the beginning, it was just, let's make the most beautiful machine we can and hope that it's better than most regular motorcycles out there. Let's fast forward to the other side of the equation here.

00:15:32:21 - 00:15:55:14

Design I think. Branding challenge I think we can all agree like car firms growth has been very impressive without a lot of dollars put behind marketing. Now, on the fundraising side of things, I think you are in a very interesting position as a founder because I think, like you said earlier, you've recognized it's going to take a lot more money to lift this thing in the way that you want it to.

00:15:55:14 - 00:16:14:19

Like actually accomplish the vision. And I would say you're pretty good at fundraising. Like, I think you're pretty inspiring guy, in terms of how you pitch and talk, talk to me about how the the markets move, though. It's obviously super hard to raise in the US right now as a hardware startup. What does that do psychologically for you as a as a founder?

00:16:14:21 - 00:16:55:10

Yeah, I mean, it's been there quite a quite a journey to build the hardware, the startup and probably the absolute worst sequence of events. And so we, you know, we started it about six years ago and the first two years. So like I mentioned, just bootstrapping, you know, trying to get something off the ground. We launched the brand, and the two prototypes, 2019 and then started getting traction, raised some VC funding and, began to like our process from a prototype to Manufacturable bike, which is, incredibly complicated, like, more complicated than I would ever imagine to be.

00:16:55:12 - 00:17:18:21

And then Covid. So, we're in the middle of building physical things, and I have to send my entire team home because this virus and nobody knows how long it's going to last. So we basically, run out of funding and, I have to quarantine, with one of our engineers in our shop for three months just to finish sort of the product.

00:17:18:23 - 00:17:47:02

We launch it, after a couple of months, raise additional funding. And then supply chain disruptions. So, you know, if you're in hardware, if you're in automotive between 2020 to 2022, those were not fun times. You could it was almost impossible to get parts. If you're looking for manufacturers in Asia, shipping costs were through the roof, material costs were through the roof availability.

00:17:47:02 - 00:18:11:08

Lead times went from three months to a year, so it was probably in the absolute worst conditions imaginable to even try to get something that's physical off the ground. But we, you know, kept chipping away and just doing whatever we could, erasing basically capital from milestone to milestone to prove to our investors that we're maintaining our momentum as good as we can.

00:18:11:10 - 00:18:35:21

We're going from a prototype to a pre-production bike. It works. We validate the technology. We start going through all the regulatory, paperwork, like getting this bike actually approved for road legal use in America. And then after that, you know, the big heavyweight. So, most funding was deployed up until 2022, and we were kind of two years behind that.

00:18:35:21 - 00:19:03:21

So we're still in prototyping phase. But by the time we began delivering our bikes, the EV bubble began to deflate, because you had all of these companies that went public raise billions of dollars, over promised their, projections and their actual deliveries were way less. And I'm not going to mention names, but there was so many companies that went out of business and which obviously does not do us any favor because we chose a different approach.

00:19:03:21 - 00:19:29:08

We said, let's start small, let's get a few bikes on the road and prove the technology, validate, you know, that there is a market for this. And then once we're mature, then we go and raise a proper funding for us to get into production. And that's kind of the stage we are now. But the market, is as tough as it's been, I think, since 2008, in terms of dollars being deployed into hardware.

00:19:29:10 - 00:20:04:06

So I think where we are today is probably one of the most difficult, phases for any starter to be, which is hardware, electrical vehicles and a company that has revenue but is not profitable. And it's it's really hard to be a profitable automotive company when you build one by one vehicle in Brooklyn. So yeah. And when you're subscale too, it's, you know, you're in a business where you're just going to need to consistently fundraise until you get to a certain scale.

00:20:04:08 - 00:20:23:08

And then I remember I was talking and you were like, there is a couple points where you're really close to getting that, like big unlock. I forgot there's a big P that was, you know, you were close to closing. What was it like a $50 million, a check, something like adding. Yeah. Like how many times did you get close to that?

00:20:23:08 - 00:20:40:14

And then people were just like last minute like, nah, sorry. A couple of times. Yeah. And every time it's been sort of like, and I think this is a story for most startups is, oh, show us more. You know, we're in once you get to the next phase. So we're in once you launch the prototype, we're in.

00:20:40:14 - 00:21:01:13

Once you ship the first product, we're in. Once you ship the first 50, we're in. Once you, you know, and so on and so on. So the goalpost sort of moves, which is fine. And, where we are now is, so we know how to build this thing. We don't. People want it. And now we just need to basically start sourcing in volumes so we can start reducing our costs and getting the product on the road.

00:21:01:13 - 00:21:26:16

So we kind of widened our approach on who we're looking for in terms of investors. And and talking to larger, manufacturing groups and the Asia and the automotive and even technology who already has manufacturing capabilities, and could both invest into, to Terraform, but also allow us to, tap into their existing supply chains and, basically get into, get into production.

00:21:26:16 - 00:21:46:16

So at this moment it's, you know, whatever makes sense for us to get to the next stage. Yeah. I think it's just a game of, like, resilience at this point. Right? You've been at it at six years. It's like you got to keep going. Oh, yeah. It's 100% mental. Yeah. What are the the moments for you?

00:21:46:17 - 00:22:05:24

Like what? You know, I think there's a personal question, but like, I think everyone has the the motivating factor for you. Like, what's what's keeping it moving for you. It's a good question and something that I asked myself during the absolute, you know, most challenging times. It's like, what the hell am I doing? This is so much more difficult than I ever imagined.

00:22:06:01 - 00:22:32:16

And my previous companies were mainly software based. So now dealing with the thing that is made from hundreds of parts from every corner of the world, dealing with 30 plus vendors and coordinating the symphony of parts that need to arrive, being put together into a bike, a quality control, you know, shipping it out, logistics and aftersales maintenance. And we're a tiny team like we were.

00:22:32:16 - 00:23:03:03

You know, we're not a we're not Harley-Davidson. So we're still learning from this. And it is incredibly challenging. But at the end of the day, when I see the experience people have when they ride the bike and this sort of like childlike, you know, reaction, like, what the what is this thing? Right? I know we've created something unique and we saw that that that thing, that product, you know, excellence, however you want to call it.

00:23:03:05 - 00:23:27:22

Like we have it now, the challenges. How do we, how do we craft a sensible business plan and make this end to end to a financially viable thing? But the big vision is also, you know, there's massive opportunity if you look at sort of the macro scale, like there are 99% internal combustion motorcycles, on the road, less than 1% of them electric.

00:23:27:24 - 00:23:51:08

So we're going through the biggest transformation in mobility since 100 years. So the opportunity to be part on the, on the, on the ground level and shape this to really shape like what does mobility of the future look like? What is the experience we want to provide. What is the the the sense and the feeling that that is sort of the primary drivers.

00:23:51:10 - 00:24:27:04

Imagine being one of the first automotive companies in the 19, 1905, you know, and then fast forward and see, well, how many of them were still around. And, I think star is has a potential. Yeah. For sure. It's so it's a long journey. You're definitely dedicated to it. But I think from my perspective, like just being on the sidelines for a long time and also being a marketer, the silver lining and kind of the also unfortunate part of all of this is that, like the product really markets itself, like you build such a good product that I have no doubt, like if you had the distribution like people would buy kind of validated

00:24:27:04 - 00:24:52:23

that with the preorders too, right? So now it's just like it's just like getting the access right, being able to carry it out. Just a simple mechanics of and now that's, you should go on shark Tank and and get the distribution money. Oh, man, I think we, we get butchered on a shark tank. Dude, I wanted to ask me, since you since you're talking about product design, do you feel like your product design has sent ripples in the industry?

00:24:52:23 - 00:25:12:07

Like, do you think the other big boys are looking at it and saying, well, okay, you know, maybe we need to up our game here? So I have definitely seen our design language in other upcoming companies and, they've been inspired by it to say, initially I was kind of annoyed. I'm like, what? Have you seen this part?

00:25:12:07 - 00:25:37:05

Like, it's a direct. But then, you know, someone said the biggest compliment you have is when someone, someone copies you. So, yeah, sure. What I've also seen, which is good, is that more companies are beginning to embrace, more sustainable materials and are developing either biodegradable plastics, plant based plastics, and on that aspect, go for it. Like the entire industry needs to change.

00:25:37:07 - 00:25:53:17

Go and figure it out, which is part of our mission. Like we want to highlight. Exactly. Yeah. When you have a mission, you have to be okay with and you have to want those ripple effects to extend to the entire market, which includes your competition. And so that's just part of it. And that's a really mature approach.

00:25:53:19 - 00:26:23:05

I just wanted to ask one of my biggest questions for you coming on was like around building moats, you know, for your business and your brand and your product. I think Tesla did such a good job of, you know, and having an infrastructure moat, moat, having a technological moat that a lot of their competitors like GM and Ford and whatnot are now adopting, like trying to get vertically integrated within their manufacturing, in their systems, within their vehicles.

00:26:23:07 - 00:26:44:06

And so it's interesting to see, like, I have a Tesla and now I'm sort of I'm looking again at like, what what could my next car be? And I want to stick with EVs, but I'm like, what are the trade offs here? And are there other brands that I might consider? And it's interesting to see that a lot of the moats that Tesla has built up are starting to come down.

00:26:44:10 - 00:27:13:18

I think that I just heard that, you know, GM is is able now to use the Tesla supercharging network. I think they're opening that up. You know, they're adopting a lot of the same manufacturing principles like I just mentioned, etc.. And so it's just interesting to see how that is shifting. What is your take? I'd love your take on like the broader EV market, not just motorbikes, but just broadly what you think is happening, but then also how you see that affecting your business and how you're planning for that.

00:27:13:20 - 00:27:32:10

Yeah. Good question. You know, it's depends how you look at the whole movie movement. And there's two camps. One of them is, they hate it. They're like, EVs don't make any sense. You got range anxiety. You know, I'm going to stick with my regular internal combustion car for a while, and the EVs don't really reduce the carbon footprint.

00:27:32:10 - 00:28:06:19

It depends how you do the calculations and so on. And on the other camper, like, I'm all, you know, once I go electric, I'm never going to go back. And the companies on most companies unfortunately haven't done a good job educating, consumers on, the, the benefits of EVs and in certain ways exaggerated the sustainable component because they thought that that's going to be the key thing to get someone to buy an electric vehicle is by shaming them and saying, you need to reduce your carbon footprint, and an EV is a better alternative.

00:28:06:21 - 00:28:28:03

I don't I think people are becoming more aware of that. And the average consumer, is educated. They do a lot of research. So I, I think that story needs to be downplayed. And you simply, be transparent and say at some point EVs are going to be for sure the most sustainable, but that needs to also happen on the grid.

00:28:28:04 - 00:28:49:01

The grid needs to be powered by renewable energy as long as it's, you know, powered by coal recharging your EV is is not going to be the sustainable option. When it comes to maintenance, these are, way better, you know, but at the end, it's also the experience. So I think, you know, finding that balance of, what are the what are the selling points?

00:28:49:05 - 00:29:19:05

What do you highlight? And from our perspective, it's, how do I how do we make something that people actually want to use? And how do you create sort of the overall experience of riding a motorcycle? Can we make it safer? Can we make it more sustainable? Can we use it more user friendly? So we're looking at a more of a holistic approach and not just say, oh, this is the only reason you know, what I see generally in the EV space is, there's not a lot of initiative happening in terms of charging infrastructure.

00:29:19:05 - 00:29:51:17

So especially, large American cities like New York. L.A it's still a really difficult to find charging stations. For example, in New York, if you ride a motorcycle, you can really charge it anywhere on the street because you need to go into parking garage. And most garages don't allow motorcycles. So while in Europe, they're doing, charging stations and, you know, poles, pretty much every block, you don't see the United States in United States, which prevents, widespread adoption of a safety is a big concern, you know, more and more in lightweight mobility.

00:29:51:18 - 00:30:17:10

We read articles that some, bicycle, electric bicycle caught fire. So there's not enough regulation to make sure that companies are building high quality products. And, of course, people are not going to buy a product if they're like, oh my God, is this thing going to catch fire or not? Although that's improving dramatically. And there's, you know, people are being more and more sort of diligent on where they're source their components and so on.

00:30:17:15 - 00:30:50:05

But if a person only I believe one thing that I'm not fully, behind is this, movement to build giant electric trucks. You know, electric trucks that weigh 7,000 pounds in the name of sustainability. And they transport a person that weighs 170 pounds. So the amount of raw materials that you need to extract from Earth to build an electric truck, that you are going to drive three miles a day, I think it's such a waste of resources.

00:30:50:07 - 00:31:13:06

And, they there are other ways to deploy it. So if a company's intention is to really be sustainable and, to try to figure out, you know, how do we reduce our carbon footprint and how do we stop mining precious minerals? The easiest thing you can do is to build lighter and smaller vehicles. And lightweight mobility, especially for cities, makes a ton more sense.

00:31:13:06 - 00:31:35:03

So focus on two wheeled mobility. Focus on electric scooters. You know, obviously we build electric motorcycles, and that's the kind of, you know, part of a part of our mission. But, it's I don't see enough of that happening. There's a lot of talk in the four wheeled mobility, which is cars and automotive. Everyone going electric, but not enough initiative and lightweight mobility.

00:31:35:05 - 00:31:57:03

Can I just ask a question about charging? You know, I as an EV owner, I think a lot about charging infrastructure and like how it could be better. And I had heard that there was like this R&D movement towards, what do you call it, like switch, quick switch in and out battery packs instead of like plug in charging, you know what I mean?

00:31:57:06 - 00:32:27:04

I don't want to go into a rabbit hole here, but for motor bikes, it seems even more doable. Like I could picture on the side of the Manhattan street, like basically a, vending machine, if you will, a tube of like batteries that you just, you know, drive up to switch, you know, put it in and out. Do you think about charging as part of your I don't know, you know, your product architecture, your catalog, or are you not even focused on that at all?

00:32:27:06 - 00:32:47:05

And is that too difficult of an issue? Like just talk about that real quick I think. Makes sense. It depends on the product category. So for for our specific, bike, the Luna, the bike that we have now, this is a high performance bike, you know, the 0 to 6 in about 3.8 seconds, 100 mile range, battery pack alone.

00:32:47:05 - 00:33:09:18

And the bike weighs about 150 pounds. So it would be highly impractical to swap a 150 pound piece of equipment. But if you go down and products, for example, electric scooters or electric assist bicycles, then yes, it makes total sense. The batteries are much smaller the way, much less. And the review company is doing that. One of them is called Google out of Taiwan.

00:33:09:18 - 00:33:30:10

So they have a regular, you know, urban, scooter. You lift a seat, you pick up a battery, you go to a thing that looks like a vending machine, pop in the battery, put a new one. Keep writing. So there are a few companies that fully believe that the future of EV, urban mobility is swappable battery packs.

00:33:30:15 - 00:34:01:22

I think it's part of the solution. But also, I think it's important to look at the actual use case. So the average speed in New York is three miles per hour. Average commute is between 7 to 13 miles. So even though range anxiety is the first thing that people think about it, the actual practicality of how people, commute in the cities range anxiety is not really an issue, because you would need to charge even if you get 50 miles on your scooter, you know you charge it every four days.

00:34:01:24 - 00:34:21:16

So I think swappable battery packs is part of the solution. But the biggest solution is just charging infrastructure, making it easier to charge and and plug it in wherever you go. Last thing, I just wanted to mention on this line is I saw a picture of your water jet. Your jet ski. Was that like a. First of all, it's beautiful.

00:34:21:16 - 00:34:51:03

It's like a concept, you know, brand play. Or is that part of the roadmap? And and broadly, how do you think about your product roadmap and your catalog extending in the future? It's definitely part of the, roadmap. And the very initial sort of idea was not just to build electric motorcycles, but how do we, how do we look at mobility as a lifestyle and how do we build fun, fun products?

00:34:51:03 - 00:35:11:24

So riding a motorcycle is, you know, it's a visceral experience. And so even six years ago, the thought was, okay, this is what we're going to start with, electric motorcycles, because it makes sense. And that's also what one of my biggest passions. And then, our office is, right by by, the water. So I'm looking over the water.

00:35:11:24 - 00:35:29:12

I'm like, oh, interesting. What if we took all the technology we have from the bike and just made put it on the water? And in a way, a jet ski electric jet ski is kind of motorcycle on the water. So I spent a couple of months just doing a concept design and then launched it there, mainly to show here's what we're thinking.

00:35:29:12 - 00:35:49:19

And for Ford not to be perceived as purely as an electric motorcycle company, but to demonstrate this is something we intend to do in the future. And, just to gauge the feedback as well and stir up some, you know, some energy, why not? I think just on the road map. Question to tourists. Obviously you guys have a lot of plans.

00:35:49:21 - 00:36:19:14

You know, water bike and jet ski is part of it. But I think, you know, when we first started talking, I got really excited about the, motor bike. It's not like the scooter market, like, because it's. We talked about the Tam. It's massive. Like, it has crazy applications in, like, European markets, for instance. I'm curious, like when you think about forms growth, like, do you think the Luna is going to be the superstar because of the response that it's had?

00:36:19:16 - 00:36:40:03

Or have you found yourself like thinking about like the next thing? So the Luna is our Halo product. You know, think of it as, the Tesla Roadster. So our rollout plan is quite similar. Begin in the premium luxury space and, establish the brand. And then our second product is going to be more of a mid-market electric motorcycle.

00:36:40:03 - 00:37:08:19

So price that we're looking at around 16,000, which is going to be a much larger demographic and a more affordable product. And then after that, we'll see, if we're going to do a, urban scooter, or if we're going to, drop, doing an even entry level electric motorcycle. But the roll up plan is let's for sure to preserve star quality in the brand, but make make our products more, more accessible.

00:37:08:21 - 00:37:32:00

As you've like, as this thing has grown and, you know, I remember seeing the first prototype to, you know, obviously you guys are shipping bikes today. It's taken six years. Like, you're clearly very dedicated to TR form your identities wrapped up in it too. Yep. But do you think the like what do you think the next five years look like for our farm?

00:37:32:00 - 00:38:00:23

Like, how do you how are you rationalizing the journey? I'm just curious because I think a lot of founders come to different junctures where they're like, all right, this is taking a lot longer than I thought. How does how do I rectify that? I think yeah, it's a balance between being, optimistic and delusional. And, you know, the closer you get to that, the, the more you sort of refine the window of what actually makes sense.

00:38:00:23 - 00:38:24:16

And me not coming from the world of manufacturing, I lived under the timelines of sort of software iteration, which happens ten times faster than hardware iterations. So our initial plan was, oh, we were going to start in production two years ago. And then again, supply chain disruptions, Covid and just the nature of hardware cycles. Now I have a better understanding of the timelines.

00:38:24:18 - 00:38:47:13

So it's going to take a while for us until we are in a full fledged production mode where we are able to consistently, reliably deliver these bikes at the volumes of hundreds, thousands, and then focus on the next step. So within the next two years, although we're very close to getting to to a place where we say, okay, cool, now we can go and trigger a production batch of 500 bikes.

00:38:47:17 - 00:39:11:24

It's going to take us 12 to 18 months to get to that point, and then we're going to be on a fairly solid footing. Then we can begin, having proper budgets to focus on new product development, setting up our sales and distribution, and then start rolling out the next product. You know, or begin opening up our concept stores, distribution and sort of, going into other markets like Europe and Asia.

00:39:12:01 - 00:39:30:23

So then, the next five years, I see us as being in full, you know, automotive manufacturing, scale having, key, brand stores all over the world and, having 2 or 3 products out, out on the road. How do you carry out your marketing right now? Like, do you have a team? Do you have a person?

00:39:30:23 - 00:39:56:06

Can I ask to, like, just roll this up into one question? Do you think how do you carry out your marketing? How did you carry out the marketing to generate their wait list? And do you think there's anything that you didn't do that you would go back and do to generate more wait list via marketing? This because we've been bootstrapped and basically, most of the funding has been funneled into product development, which is key.

00:39:56:08 - 00:40:20:10

We never really had a marketing budget. So I knew that if for every dollar that I'm getting as an investment, $0.99 of it needs to go into the product. So hence our entire team is is engineers. And initially I was hoping well, hopefully the, the bike speaks for itself. Hopefully the brand has an interesting story that people say, oh, have you seen this?

00:40:20:10 - 00:40:39:22

The company, you should go check it out. So relying on what every entrepreneur, a founder hopes for the organic growth of your product. You know, fortunately we got to that point where when very minimal, I wouldn't say, you know, minimal spend. But there was also a lot of effort to put in to cultivate the brand and get it to a certain point that we feel good about it.

00:40:39:24 - 00:41:03:13

And that's also my passion, is you know, how do you create the story around this and, focusing on the visuals. So before we were even launched the bike, you know, we did Instagram and start teasing certain parts and components and telling the story behind the bill, how the bikes are made. And then after that, yeah, it kind of rolled from there, you know, just generating content on Instagram, something that people find interesting.

00:41:03:13 - 00:41:27:23

One of the videos went viral and had, I don't know, 15 million views or something. So that gave us a boost. Tons of features and, articles, you know, New York Times. And then, we did a photoshoot with Lewis Hamilton, who's, you know, legend in Formula One. So our bike with him on Wall Street Journal. So all of that sort of kind of grew intentionally, organically and, yeah.

00:41:27:24 - 00:41:46:03

So I guess pretty lucky. I think it's like a true organic story. Like, if you I mean, it's hard. It's I haven't looked at the Instagram, but it's like organically 130,000 followers, something like that. Just people looking at the bike, looking at the content you guys put out and and being like, wow, that's that's cool. Tons of earned media.

00:41:46:04 - 00:42:13:06

Like you said. Lewis supporting. And then, you know, it really hit me when when you see the bike in person, you're just like, that's that's cool. You know, you kind of want to just follow along for the story. Yeah. I think anyone who's building a product, especially in hardware, but also just even on the consumer side, like you, you have a textbook case of organic growth that generated, what, $2 million in weightless sales.

00:42:13:06 - 00:42:29:19

Right. Something like that. Yeah, it's close to eight. We'll see what the conversion is going to look like, but, yeah, I mean, it's a it's it's a good spot to be in to, to be able to demonstrate people want this and then they, you know, the investors like, how much money did you spend on customer acquisition?

00:42:30:00 - 00:42:54:04

And I'm sometimes I'm, I say it I'm like zero because it's unbelievable. They expect me to say, oh, we spend about $500 per customer when I say, well, we really got nothing. Zero customer acquisition. So there's there's definitely a level of skepticism like how do you scale that? So at some point we for need to have a proper marketing budget to be able to show this is outperforming targeted campaigns.

00:42:54:04 - 00:43:11:09

You don't work with you guys to do like a professional acquisition campaign. But so far, which has been, you know, like a tap when the in our sales to get to this point. I think Jackson I think that's a great place to to cap it off. Taj, thanks so much for joining us again. Excited to see you guys continue to grow.

00:43:11:14 - 00:43:34:11

And your bike is, yeah, you get your license to leave me, after seeing that thing in New York. That's going to be my first, first automotive purchase. It's it's tough. Yes. Thanks. Thank you man. All right, guys, thanks so much. There's.